Disarm How?

Disarm How?
Disarm. It doesn't take Armour into consideration. It does Damage. Disarm those impossi-hit Hida, and smack the s*** out of them as you do it. Just hope they don't come at you bare-handed, otherwise they really are impossible to hit. Is this really how disarm is supposed to work? It says make a contested attack roll. This seems to be an exception to rolling against TNtbH. Is it an additional contested attack roll? The same one? Does it have to beat their TNtbH? None of this is clear in the RAW. As it stands, I call 3 raises for a disarm, make a contested attack roll, if I win I get to deal damage and they lose their weapon. I don't have to beat their TNtbH, as it is not specified in the description. I just have to win the contested attack roll. Normal attacks are made against the TNtbH, but a contested one can be made without the TNtbH. Arrgh.

I rule that disarms don't do damage. That's why you only make a Contested Roll and don't have to roll against your opponent's TNtbH. Also solves the issue of whether you need one or two attack rolls. Note that a strict reading IMO supports this: the description says what you have to do (Contested Roll) and what the effect is if you succeed (weapon is knocked from opponent's hand). There is no mention whatsoever of damage. The unfortunate counterargument is that Knockdown doesn't mention damage either, but that's a worthless maneuver if you don't get to damage your opponent along with knocking him prone (3 Raises, attack roll against TNtbH, and you need to exceed an extra TN on top of that).

I rule that disarms don't do damage. That's why you only make a Contested Roll and don't have to roll against your opponent's TNtbH. Also solves the issue of whether you need one or two attack rolls. Unfortunately, Shawn ruled that Disarms *could* do damage, as the only manoeuver that mentions no damage specifically is feint I believe his words were "I don't see why not" Note that a strict reading IMO supports this: the description says what you have to do (Contested Roll) and what the effect is if you succeed (weapon is knocked from opponent's hand). There is no mention whatsoever of damage. The difficulty comes with the strict reading of the effect of raises. They are called for "additional effect" the initial effect of an attack is to strike and then damage. Extra attack doesn't stipulate that you do damage, neither does Called shot, nor Guard nor Knockdown either. The default is to cause damage. Feint implies this by being the only one toe specifically state that it does no damage, and Guard stipulates that you don't actually have to attack your opponent, but you can make the attack roll anyway. This is the craziness of Guard. The unfortunate counterargument is that Knockdown doesn't mention damage either, but that's a worthless maneuver if you don't get to damage your opponent along with knocking him prone (3 Raises, attack roll against TNtbH, and you need to exceed an extra TN on top of that). Quite so. Disarm was probably intended NOT to do damage, but as this is left out of the description, the Disarm might well come at the price of your opponent's fingers.

The opposed attack roll is an effect of using the disarm manuever. On a succesful attack with this manuever you make an opposed attack roll to actually disarm your opponent. The contested roll is labeled as an attack roll which means it gains all of the bonuses of an attack roll, but it is a seperate roll. An attack modified by the Disarm Manuever isn't broken, because you make your attack as normal TNtbH bonus as it always is, then you make the seperate opposed attack roll to see if they drop the weapon. To my knowledge Shawn made the ruling for Disarms dealing damage based under this presumption.

I fail to see how it ignores armor. You have to hit their normal TN to be hit plus three raises and then make the contested attack roll. There are two rolls. You do not just make a contested attack roll. Even if you DID just make a contested attack roll, you have to make it with 3 raises over your opponent. Hardly an auto win.

I fail to see how it ignores armor. You have to hit their normal TN to be hit plus three raises and then make the contested attack roll. Are you sure? Is it inclusive, or exclusive? The wording doesn't make it clear whether your initial attack roll is the one you use. Do you have to make the initial attack roll, then make a contested attack roll? Or do you just make a Contested Attack roll? There are two rolls. You do not just make a contested attack roll. Even if you DID just make a contested attack roll, you have to make it with 3 raises over your opponent. Hardly an auto win. Yeah, but if I am facing a Hida with defence 5, Heavy armour and Shell of Stone in Full Defence, I would prefer to pit myself against his skill. +15 compared to +Who knows how much? I believe what the intention was is as follows: Disarm (3 Raises) Your Attack roll becomes a Contested attack roll. Roll Agility/Skill vs your opponent's Agility/Weapon Skill or Strength/Weapon Skill (their choice). If you succeed, your opponent drops a weapon of your choosing. You do not deal damage. Why? Because you can make a 3 raise called shot to a limb to simulate them losing the use of the weapon, and dealing damage at the same time.

I fail to see how it ignores armor. You have to hit their normal TN to be hit plus three raises and then make the contested attack roll. Are you sure? Yes. Several effects refer to the "initial disarm roll" implying that there are two rolls; which there are. Is it inclusive, or exclusive? The wording doesn't make it clear whether your initial attack roll is the one you use. The wording is indeed very unclear and Inu and I have debatign this issue many times in the past. Do you have to make the initial attack roll, then make a contested attack roll? Or do you just make a Contested Attack roll? You make an initial attack roll versus your opponent’s TNtbH + Three raises. If that success, then you make a contested attack roll. This contested attack roll does not require three raises I believe what the intention was is as follows: Disarm (3 Raises) Your Attack roll becomes a Contested attack roll. Roll Agility/Skill vs your opponent's Agility/Weapon Skill or Strength/Weapon Skill (their choice). If you succeed, your opponent drops a weapon of your choosing. You do not deal damage. Why? Because you can make a 3 raise called shot to a limb to simulate them losing the use of the weapon, and dealing damage at the same time. By you own interpretation you never make the three raises. What roll are the three raises being made on?

I believe what the intention was is as follows: Disarm (3 Raises) Your Attack roll becomes a Contested attack roll. Roll Agility/Skill vs your opponent's Agility/Weapon Skill or Strength/Weapon Skill (their choice). If you succeed, your opponent drops a weapon of your choosing. You do not deal damage. Why? Because you can make a 3 raise called shot to a limb to simulate them losing the use of the weapon, and dealing damage at the same time. By you own interpretation you never make the three raises. What roll are the three raises being made on? Not so. you make the 3 raises on your contested attack roll, as your normal attack roll becomes contested. You have to make 3 raises on it. This puts you at a 15 point penalty compared to your opponent, so you had better be good at disarms.

You make an initial attack roll versus your opponent’s TNtbH + Three raises. If that success, then you make a contested attack roll. Assuming the former is true - which I'm now inclined to believe - where does it say the initial attack roll has to be a success if you want to make the Contested Roll? Guard, Knockdown, Extra Attack and Feint all specify they require a successful attack roll (and for Called Shot and Extra Damage it's obvious), but Disarm doesn't. Could this mean that a Disarm attempt could result in damage + disarmed opponent, damage + opponent not disarmed or no damage + disarmed opponent, depending in the outcomes of the two rolls?

Assuming the former is true - which I'm now inclined to believe - where does it say the initial attack roll has to be a success if you want to make the Contested Roll? Guard, Knockdown, Extra Attack and Feint all specify they require a successful attack roll (and for Called Shot and Extra Damage it's obvious), but Disarm doesn't. Could this mean that a Disarm attempt could result in damage + disarmed opponent, damage + opponent not disarmed or no damage + disarmed opponent, depending in the outcomes of the two rolls? Possibly. How disarm will work is dependant on how Shawn is going to want it to work, because any ruling I make is going to be heavily contested due to the poor wording in the RAW.

Assuming the former is true - which I'm now inclined to believe - where does it say the initial attack roll has to be a success if you want to make the Contested Roll? Guard, Knockdown, Extra Attack and Feint all specify they require a successful attack roll (and for Called Shot and Extra Damage it's obvious), but Disarm doesn't. Could this mean that a Disarm attempt could result in damage + disarmed opponent, damage + opponent not disarmed or no damage + disarmed opponent, depending in the outcomes of the two rolls? Possibly. How disarm will work is dependant on how Shawn is going to want it to work, because any ruling I make is going to be heavily contested due to the poor wording in the RAW. Actually it's not possible without it expressly written as an exception. By default if a roll fails the effects of the raises on that roll fail as well.

Actually it's not possible without it expressly written as an exception. By default if a roll fails the effects of the raises on that roll fail as well. Maybe, but I can't find any such rule in the rulebook. All I can find is that the result of the roll fails if the roll doesn't meet the increased TN after Raising. The Disarm attempt is not the result of the roll, it's the result of making those Raises.

Actually it's not possible without it expressly written as an exception. By default if a roll fails the effects of the raises on that roll fail as well. Maybe, but I can't find any such rule in the rulebook. All I can find is that the result of the roll fails if the roll doesn't meet the increased TN after Raising. The Disarm attempt is not the result of the roll, it's the result of making those Raises.By that same arguement, I could make a athletics check to jump and then make 1000000000 raises with greatpotential to end up on top of a mountain, fail the roll and still have the benefit of the raises and end up on top of the mountain even though my feet never left the floor. Raises are part of the effects of a sucessful roll. pg. 159 "Making a Raise increases the Target number by 5, but provides some additional effect of the players choice if the roll is successful" There is an official rule if you are looking for something concrete.

By that same arguement, I could make a athletics check to jump and then make 1000000000 raises with greatpotential to end up on top of a mountain, fail the roll and still have the benefit of the raises and end up on top of the mountain even though my feet never left the floor. Only if you define the benefit of making those Raises awkwardly. Moreover, thtis example strikes me as a really bad situation to use Raises for. You're not going for an additional effect to your jump and there are no adverse circumstances, you just want to jump really high and far. That warrants a really (*really*) high TN, but no Raises. The actual rule reference works for me though.

When do you apply the damage of the disarm. On the initial attack roll, or after the contested attack roll? If its a contested attack roll why dont I do damage on that? Can I take raises for damage I'm making an attack roll to hit them and taking 3 raises, so if I'm making an attack roll I do damage right..... Screw extra attack, from now on I'm disarming people, it needs less raises!!

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