Kenshinzen are FUN! and broke.

The tech further says that raises can be declared on this attack, so what if he wants to raise once on Moe for damage, raise twice on Larry for Knockdown and three times on Curly for a Disarm? As I said, this is also pertinent to shugenja who get conditional bonuses/penalties against other opponents when spell casting. If we take it the way I think most people use spells, you apply the same effects of the initial roll and the raises to everybody. For example, Isawa Bob casts Jade Strike and raises three times to get +1k0 for damage and to hit an additional target. However, you get also the complex case if one of the targets gives Bob a bonus/penalty (say Wrath of the Kami).

Since we decided that this debate turned into, "How do the various situations where "one roll is made versus multiple TN's" work?" This might be a good time to ask about the Contested Roll sitations where coniditional effects are triggered and affect one opponent, but because of the rules for Contested Rolls, would apply against all of the opponents in the roll.

But what happens when Steve gets two Free Raises to hit Moe, +2k2 to hit Larry and has know the School 5 versus Curly (+5 to his roll)? Well, that is as much an issue for shugenja as it is for this technique. So I think that is a good question to ask regardless of this technique. Right and that is why I reject Brian’s ruling. This isn’t a Kenshinzen issue. IT is an “I make one roll against multiple target’s TNs but I have conditional bonuses and dice against different ones” issue. This is basically a “How do Cooperative skill rolls and contested social rolls against multiple targets work” issue.

TL,DR! But seriously. The idea behind this Technique is really quite simple, and I think some of you are overthinking it. The idea is that the Kenshinzen is the master of the single perfect stroke. Kenshinzen Steve is facing off against the ronin bandits Moe, Larry, and Curly. They have TNs of 15, 25, and 20, respectively. Steve envisions the perfect strike that will cut begin low and to the left, slice through the meat of Moe's thigh, across Larry's abdoment, and end its arc after slicing Curly's throat. Three dead (or dying) bandits, one flawless strike. So Steve ponies up. Let's say he's rolling 7k5. He chooses to make one Raise for damage. He rolls and gets a pretty decent result: 28. His strike cuts through Moe's leg as planned, but Larry's do-maru is thicker than he anticipated and Larry is not cut. Still, the strike continues as envisioned and gets Curly right in the pipes, just like Steve knew that it would. Time to roll for damage against Moe and Curly! I think that's pretty straightforward from the language. That is EXACTLY what it does…in the simple case. And I believe most cases are simple unless they are complicated by deliberate action. But what happens when Steve gets two Free Raises to hit Moe, +2k2 to hit Larry and has know the School 5 versus Curly (+5 to his roll)? You'd get the +10 to hit More for the Free Raises, which means you're pretty much GOING to hit Moe (38 vs. 14). The Know the School bonus would apply when you compare the attack roll to Curly's TN (33 vs. 25). The 2k2 gets thrown out because you can't use variable dice pools for a single roll. These things seem very intuitive to me. I guess I just don't see where the confusion lies. The tech further says that raises can be declared on this attack, so what if he wants to raise once on Moe for damage, raise twice on Larry for Knockdown and three times on Curly for a Disarm? It's one attack. You make Raises against them all or not at all. Again, I find this intuitive, and the theoretical confusion makes no sense to me. :( Also, NOTHING in the tech say it has to be used with a melee attack, letting one arrow kill multiple targets. You could also in theory GRAPLLE everyone within 5’ of you. They're the Kenshinzen. Of course it's a melee attack. Guys, this isn't the Utah state legal code relating to the consumption of alcohol on alternate Sundays. There are lots of problems in the rules that we need to iron out, but in this case it feels a lot like someone went LOOKING for something to wax legalistic about. It's like someone demanding to use a cricket bat in baseball because no one specifically said he had to use a baseball bat. Of course they didn't, but it's baseball. I am in no way decrying the noble efforts you valiant souls have undertaken on this most august forum, I just think this particular issue has the feel of fabrication about it. There was this one guy I gamed with some in high school, and his constant quote at games was "but it doesn't say I CAN'T do that!" Everyone else there knew how it was supposed to work, but this guy made trouble where there was none so he could either 1) twink his character more or 2) enjoy a spirited debate. We eventually quit playing with him because he was sort of a dick. So I guess I'm saying... keep to the code, brothers! Also I'm in a weird mood because my wife and I are adopting a baby next week and I'm totally freaked out, so sorry if I'm all incoherent or anything.

Also I'm in a weird mood because my wife and I are adopting a baby next week and I'm totally freaked out, so sorry if I'm all incoherent or anything. Congratulations and good for you. I think anyone that is willing to adopt an unwanted or uncared for child is doing a great thing. My best wishes for your new family. Now, we really need to know how you guys intended the situations where "one roll versus multiple TN's" was supposed to work when you have conditional bonuses. The Kenshinzen was one, somewhat, extreme example. How would you judge the following situation. (and I am not trying to fabricate, this could actually come up in any game) An Ide, Doji, and Bayushi coutier enter into a Contested Social roll with each other. The Ide has 8 points of disadvantages, all of which the Bayushi knows about. The Bayushi has Benten's Blessing, which the Doji both knew about and was then revealed to her by her Rank 2 technique. Now the roll is made. How do the bonuses apply? Does the Bayushi just get his Free Raises against the Ide, or does he get them against both of his opponents? What about the Ide, his technique says that he gets Free Raises equal to any Free Raises that his opponent gets. Does he get the Free Raises that both the Doji and the Bayushi get, or does he only get the ones that were directly applied to him? This is such an important part of the rules and there is so little to go on. Please please please tell us what you guys intended? Thanks you

Yeah, so my Ikoma Spymaster Kenshinzen gets 4 Free raises versus each of his 5 opponents during attack rolls. Does he just add +20 to roll to determine if he beat their TN or does he get +100 versus all of them. I voted for the first way. ALL conditional bonus to succeed and free raises apply only to the specific target which seem to be what you said. However, since we are applying raises individually, it sees that you can raise the TN of each opponent individually which is what you do when you make a raise: you raise the TN. Since you have multiple individual TNs, why couldn’t you raise each one separately? The no conditional bonus dice rule is good, but what if a characters gets a +1k1 versus a specific opponents and all opponent meet the criteria?

Yeah, so my Ikoma Spymaster Kenshinzen gets 4 Free raises versus each of his 5 opponents during attack rolls. Does he just add +20 to roll to determine if he beat their TN or does he get +100 versus all of them. I think based on his example it would be 20 to each. The no conditional bonus dice rule is good, but what if a characters gets a +1k1 versus a specific opponents and all opponent meet the criteria? I think that it would be a dangerous precident to set that says that a variable bonus die cannot be applied if only 3 of 5 would trigger the bonus, but would apply if all 5 triggered it. It should be one or the other.

But seriously. The idea behind this Technique is really quite simple, and I think some of you are overthinking it. The idea is that the Kenshinzen is the master of the single perfect stroke. Kenshinzen Steve is facing off against the ronin bandits Moe, Larry, and Curly. They have TNs of 15, 25, and 20, respectively. Steve envisions the perfect strike that will cut begin low and to the left, slice through the meat of Moe's thigh, across Larry's abdoment, and end its arc after slicing Curly's throat. Three dead (or dying) bandits, one flawless strike. So Steve ponies up. Let's say he's rolling 7k5. He chooses to make one Raise for damage. He rolls and gets a pretty decent result: 28. His strike cuts through Moe's leg as planned, but Larry's do-maru is thicker than he anticipated and Larry is not cut. Still, the strike continues as envisioned and gets Curly right in the pipes, just like Steve knew that it would. Time to roll for damage against Moe and Curly! I think that's pretty straightforward from the language. But what happens when Steve gets two Free Raises to hit Moe, +2k2 to hit Larry and has know the School 5 versus Curly (+5 to his roll)? You'd get the +10 to hit More for the Free Raises, which means you're pretty much GOING to hit Moe (38 vs. 14). The Know the School bonus would apply when you compare the attack roll to Curly's TN (33 vs. 25). The 2k2 gets thrown out because you can't use variable dice pools for a single roll. These things seem very intuitive to me. I guess I just don't see where the confusion lies. The tech further says that raises can be declared on this attack, so what if he wants to raise once on Moe for damage, raise twice on Larry for Knockdown and three times on Curly for a Disarm? It's one attack. You make Raises against them all or not at all. Again, I find this intuitive, and the theoretical confusion makes no sense to me. :( The way I *RUN* this tech (as opposed to how it can be interpreted) is: One attack. Multiple targets. All targets must be within 5' of you when you make the attack. Must be made with a melee weapon. Raises can be taken on each target separately, as Raises change the TN of your target, not the roll. Conditional modifiers apply to each target separately. In the above example, 2 free raises against Moe could be augmented by a Called Raise against Moe, increasing his TNtbH by 5 to ensure that Moe is knocked down (maybe you hamstrung him). Your +2k2 against Larry only applies against Larry. the roll and keep system is surprisingly robust with respect to conditional dice. I have different coloured dice. Roll 2 red along with your 7 white. The 2 red only apply when calculating the total against Larry. See above example. The rule of 10 has no problem with this either. Against Curly, your roll is augmented by +5, as the condition of Know the School (Curly) applies here. You could Raise once against Curly for Damage. You roll your 7 white dice, and 2 red dice. The die results don't change, just the modifiers you apply, and which dice you count as part of your roll. This is equally intuitive, and doesn't negate advantages gained through conditions.

The no conditional bonus dice rule is good, but what if a characters gets a +1k1 versus a specific opponents and all opponent meet the criteria? I think that it would be a dangerous precident to set that says that a variable bonus die cannot be applied if only 3 of 5 would trigger the bonus, but would apply if all 5 triggered it. It should be one or the other. Why? I think its perfectly sane. If the attack bonus is against all your opponents then it applies, even if it is a rolled dice. Shawn appears to be cutting back on the confusion that different coloured dice cause. Thus a ruling saying that if conditional dice do not apply to every opponent you may not use them is a perfectly sensible and logical thing. Conditional free raises applying are fine, becuase you just add them when you are comparing against individual totals. He also appears to be cutting back on the confusion that I cause :D

Why? I think its perfectly sane. If the attack bonus is against all your opponents then it applies, even if it is a rolled dice. I don't like the idea because it is very inconsistant. I use my Ronin Rank 1 technique against 3 of my 5 opponents. Then I use Kenshinzen Rank 3 and cannot get my extra rolled and kept die because only 3 of the 5 are affected by it. But, if I used it on all 5 opponents, I would get to roll it with Kenshinzen Rank 3. That is inconsitant. What "magically" made the technique kick in?

It's one attack. You make Raises against them all or not at all. Again, I find this intuitive, and the theoretical confusion makes no sense to me. :( I find it rather counterintuitve, but to each his own. Question: Kenshinzen Bill uses his 3rd rank tech to attack a number of opponents and elects to make 4 Raises - how can he use them? Do they all have to be made for the same purpose, or can Bill choose to Raise 4 times for Extra Damage against one opponent and Raise 3 times for a Disarm and once for Extra Damage against another, for instance?

Myself, I have always do like Shinjutsu.

View Full Version: Kenshinzen are FUN! and broke.