Kenshinzen are FUN! and broke.

... the tech as written is just written badly. I fully agree with that. My point is simply that it's not unrecoverable because it doesn't work right - it does work right, provided you go with a reasonable interpretation. So you can only use a Kata once a round? No, you can only use *this* Kata once per round. The description says you can sacrifice *one* of your attacks. No mention that you can't do it more than once in a round. No mention that you can either, just like there's no mention that 3OTM monks can blast you from a distance with their Ki - which, incidentally, they can't either. What about Matsu/Kenshinzen? They build momentum with each enemy they attack. Where do you start if they are all single attacks? The final one is going to cop such a whalloping. Or Hiruma ancestral rank 5? Slaughter all the bees first, then transfer all the extra damage over to the bad guy in the middle. This is the beehive weilding Kenshinzen of doom. He just carries a bee's nest around, and at the sign of someone tough, smashes it, kills all the bees, and obliterates the baddie. What are you going on about? With he way I told you I interpret the relevant rules, none of these are problematic. Nope, it is one attack. Multiple targets, one attack. NOT multiple attacks, multiple targets, one target to one attack. So, to repeat my earlier question: if I make Raises on this 'one attack' (which the tech specifically allows) to gain the benefits of one or more maneuvers, do I have to make them against every target of this one attack and do I have to use them all the exact same way against every target? If I try to disarm a shugenja's yojimbo when using this Technique, do I have to try to disarm the unarmed shugenja I'm also attacking too?

Lord knows that I hate this technique. I have supplied support earlier for the case that this technique is like a "whirlwind attack" and that the 5' refers to the time of the attack based on the fact that a melee weapon has no range. I understand that this is not definative enough for an end to the debate. Now the debate has moved on to whether raises can be declared or applied to the "single attack" that the technique calls for. Below, I have provided some text from the rulebook: Kenshinzen Rank 3 "You may forego all of your normal attacks in a combat round to instead deliver a single attack to every enemy within 5' of you in that round. You make a single attack roll for this special maneuver, and compare it to each opponent's TNtbH." (page 8, 4 Winds) What is a Raise? "Before making a roll, a player may declare that he intends to make a raise. Making a raise increases the target number by five, but provides some additional effect of the player's choice if the roll is successful. A raise on an attack roll might inflict more damage." (page 159, 3rd Ed Rulebook) I see nothing in the text that would prohibit a player from declaring a raise on the "single attack" roll. The part that leaves us all scratching our heads is how the player allocates the raises. Can he make a "single attack" against multiple opponents and use the raises that he declared for different effects? Do they all have to be for the same thing? Unfortunatley, the RAW leaves us with precious few examples of a situation like this technique.

Do they all have to be for the same thing? Unfortunatley, the RAW leaves us with precious few examples of a situation like this technique. RANK 2: MUHOMONO’S SPEED An ogre warrior is an army unto himself. When wielding a large weapon (no-dachi, polearm, or anything larger), you may voluntarily increase the TN of your attack roll by 10 in order to apply that roll to all targets within 10 feet of you, compared against each TN to be Hit individually. This attack is completely indiscriminate, and hits friend and foe alike. You must declare this Technique is being used before making the attack roll. This Technique may not be used with Grapple attempts. This Technique may only be used once per round. Sheesh, and I personally went over this tech with Shawn like 3 times and missed adding a "melee" requirement, even if the "large weapon" example implies melee. I also missed how to allocate raises.

Don't beat yourself up as I am pretty sure the wording works for your average player. :) For a Jourei Bengoshi... that's a different story. 8) I see nothing in the text that would prohibit a player from declaring a raise on the "single attack" roll. The part that leaves us all scratching our heads is how the player allocates the raises. Can he make a "single attack" against multiple opponents and use the raises that he declared for different effects? Do they all have to be for the same thing? Unfortunatley, the RAW leaves us with precious few examples of a situation like this technique. I wouldn't stress too much about this one as we are currently checking the design intent of the Kenshinzen Rank 3 Technique with Brian Yoon. :) I think it's a good sign that Brian will respond soon, as he joined this forum last night. 8) **Waits patiently**

A Dai-Kyu is pretty "large." And it does not make you spend all your attacks on it. Aside from the blurb about Grapples, this technique lacks any text limiting the declaration of raises as well as what they have to be used for. Like the Kenshinzen tech, there is no reason why you cannot declare raises on the attack roll and the RAW makes no mention of whether the raises all have to be used for the same thing, for every target. My suspicion is that they would. Say I went on Full Attack and used this technique. I want to use one of the Free Raises to reduce TN's and the other one to increase damage. Then just for good measure, I decide to call two raises for extra damage. I roll to hit and for everyone that I beat their TNtbH, I add three die to the damage roll.

Aside from the blurb about Grapples, this technique lacks any text limiting the declaration of raises as well as what they have to be used for. Like the Kenshinzen tech, there is no reason why you cannot declare raises on the attack roll and the RAW makes no mention of whether the raises all have to be used for the same thing, for every target. My suspicion is that they would. Say I went on Full Attack and used this technique. I want to use one of the Free Raises to reduce TN's and the other one to increase damage. Then just for good measure, I decide to call two raises for extra damage. I roll to hit and for everyone that I beat their TNtbH, I add three die to the damage roll. As the RAW is useless in this regard, I think we are best to find out designer intent. There are quite a few headaches with this technique and we need some guidance because none of us can clearly figure out the intent of the technique on the RAW alone. It's a cool technique to be sure, but most certainly a headache for us rules guys.

It IS mathematically possible to make raises against each target separately. How so? "Before making a roll, a player may declare that he intends to make a raise. Making a raise increases the target number by five." The attack roll granted by the technique is a "roll" and the RAW says that I can declare raises on it. You treat it as separate rolls with separate TNs (which the techs already says is possible) and then use the one single roll to determine the dice result instead of rolling for each target. Right... And the RAW states tha, "Raises are a gamble, and like any gamble they offer an element of risk. If you make a Raise and fail to meet the new Target Number, the roll fails even if the result meets or exceeds the original Target Number." (page 159, 3rd Ed Rulebook) I make my raises and roll my dice. I then apply that roll versus each and every TNtbH individually, like the technique says that I do. If my roll exceeds their TNtbH + raises declared, then I hit. If not, then I don't hit. The RAW is clear that raises can be declared on these rolls, it is not clear how they are allocated. Since the RAW has nothing to say on the matter, I would submit that they cannot. They all have to be allocated in exactally the same way for every opponent. Just like declaring raises when only one opponent is invloved.

It IS mathematically possible to make raises against each target separately. How so? "Before making a roll, a player may declare that he intends to make a raise. Making a raise increases the target number by five." The attack roll granted by the technique is a "roll" and the RAW says that I can declare raises on it. As each target has a separate target number, I see no reason you couldn’t raise each target number individually. And the RAW states tha, "Raises are a gamble, and like any gamble they offer an element of risk. If you make a Raise and fail to meet the new Target Number, the roll fails even if the result meets or exceeds the original Target Number." (page 159, 3rd Ed Rulebook) I make my raises and roll my dice. I then apply that roll versus each and every TNtbH individually, like the technique says that I do. If my roll exceeds their TNtbH + raises declared, then I hit. If not, then I don't hit. But you check you roll versus each person’s separate TN and thus ou can succeed on some and fail on others. The RAW is clear that raises can be declared on these rolls, it is not clear how they are allocated. Since the RAW has nothing to say on the matter, I would submit that they cannot. They all have to be allocated in exactally the same way for every opponent. Just like declaring raises when only one opponent is invloved. That is one possibility and if Brian Yoon comes in here to explain to us how he intended the tech to work in third Ed we can decided then. I am just saying that it is possible to allow separate raises on this roll not that it is that way period.

You can all thank Isawa Chuckles for bringing this tech to my attention: So, I am Rank 3 Ronin Warrior and a Rank 3 Kenshizen and I was on full defense for 3 rounds. In the first round a Hida attacked me and missed. On round two, he attacked and missed again and a Kakita attacked and missed. On round 3 the Hida and Kakita attack and miss along with a Mirumoto. On Round 4 I use my Kenshinzen Rank 3 tech on those three and four Moto. How much bonus dice from the Rank 1 Ronin Warror Tech do I get on my “single attack roll”?

Now that we are five pages into the debate on this technique, I thought I would make a summary of the debate so far. Wording of the technique: "You may forego all of your normal attacks in a combat round to instead deliver a single attack to every enemy within 5' of you in that round. You make a single attack roll for this special maneuver, and compare it to each opponent's TNtbH." (page 8, 4 Winds) Open Issues: 1. Is it Spring Attack where I can move my full movement and make a single attack versus every opponent I was within 5' of this turn, or is it like Whirlwind Attack where I make a single attack against every opponent that is within 5' of me? 2. Does this technique allow ranges to be extended (ie. melee attacks stretching back to the first opponent passed at the beginning of the round)? 3. Raises. Can they be declared on this technique? How are they allocated? Can they be allocated differently on each enemy? How are conditional raises handled? Free Raises? 4. Other Schools. How does this technique interract with other schools like the Ronin Warrior and Kakita Bushi? If I have forgot something, PM me and I will add it.

So you can only use a Kata once a round? No, you can only use *this* Kata once per round. The description says you can sacrifice *one* of your attacks. Semantic failure here. It states that there is a ratio of *one* attack sacrificed for <listed benefits>. There is no mention at all that it may only be used once per round. The phrase "one of your attacks" is counter point to "all of your attacks" or "two of your attacks". If it were only able to be used once a round, it would state "one, and only one of your attacks" No mention that you can't do it more than once in a round. No mention that you can either, just like there's no mention that 3OTM monks can blast you from a distance with their Ki - which, incidentally, they can't either. Where can you find that they can't blast you from a distance with the Full Moon Tattoo? Most people houserule this to touch or some such. but I haven't seen a ruling on it yet. You can all thank Isawa Chuckles for bringing this tech to my attention: So, I am Rank 3 Ronin Warrior and a Rank 3 Kenshizen and I was on full defense for 3 rounds. In the first round a Hida attacked me and missed. On round two, he attacked and missed again and a Kakita attacked and missed. On round 3 the Hida and Kakita attack and miss along with a Mirumoto. On Round 4 I use my Kenshinzen Rank 3 tech on those three and four Moto. How much bonus dice from the Rank 1 Ronin Warror Tech do I get on my “single attack roll”? Yay for coloured dice. Depending on where you allocated them, you might get 1 red, 1 blue, 1 green. If you allocate the first to the hida, the 2nd to the kakita, and the third to the Mirumoto, you take your base dice roll, and total up the separate bonuses. This is essentially the same problem as Striking as Wind.

Snipped from AEG Forum Well since you asked nicely, I will attempt to answer. "If you are declared the target of an attack, you gain one additional rolled and kept die to your attack or damage roll versus that opponent each round. You must declare which roll is receiving this bonus die at the beginning of each combat round." (page 150, 3rd Ed Rulebook) So, I am Rank 3 Ronin Warrior and a Rank 3 Kenshizen and I was on Full Defense for 3 rounds. In the first round a Hida attacked me and missed. When the Hida declares me the target of his attack I apply my Rank 1 bonus to him. On round two, he attacked and missed again and a Kakita attacked and missed. I declare the bonus die will apply to attack rolls against the Hida at the beginning of the round. When the Hida misses, I will add another die to him. On round 3 the Hida and Kakita attack and miss along with a Mirumoto. I now declare that both die will apply to attack rolls against the Hida this round. When the Hida misses for the third time, I declare him the target of my rank one technique, again. On Round 4 I use my Kenshinzen Rank 3 tech on those three and four Moto. I declare that the three dice that I have gained from my Rank 1 Technique will apply to attacks made this turn. I now move until I am within 5' of the Hida, Kakita, Mirumoto, and the four Moto and use my Rank 3 Kenshinzen Technique. Wording of the technique: "You may forego all of your normal attacks in a combat round to instead deliver a single attack to every enemy within 5' of you in that round. You make a single attack roll for this special maneuver, and compare it to each opponent's TNtbH." (page 8, 4 Winds) I make a single Agility/Kenjutsu roll with my katana adding all 3 kept die (because I am making an attack that includes him as a target) to the total of the roll. I then apply the result against each opponent's TNtbH. PS: I would like to say that I hate this technique. :P

I still like the idea of rolling your base roll in one color of dice, then for each group of extra dice against each foe, you roll them in separate groups. Then when calculating the roll against the Hida, you pick from your base plus the Hida dice. Against the Kakiat's TN you pick form your base plsu the kakita's extra dice, ect. Worse is for you to pick one die that is used against the Hida, Kakita and Mirumoto, then one die that is used against the Hida and Kakita and then one other die that is only used against the Hida. YAY! Conditional dice are FUN!

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