Kenshinzen are FUN! and broke.

Sorry to, err, confuse. That wasn't intended to be a ruling of any sort. It simply was a situation on what -I- would do, and what designer intent would have been for the technique. If I remember correctly, that was a technique that I converted over from the 2E GM's Guide. It still has the same issues that it did in 2E. So... that's all I got. Go ahead and hash it out, because I have no idea! Thanks Brian! :D I think all of us agree on that. Unless we worship anime style combat and want little girls in sailor outfits running around Rokugan. :lol: This is actually bad as some techs get boosted for previous attacks and order need to now matter and has many other interesting ramifications despite the tech saying "a single attack". IMO, I think Brian's ruling is actually a good idea, because the pertinent bonuses/penalties from previous attacks on different opponents would only apply to the opponent in question (not all the targets). Something like that helps us resolve what happens when we have a bunch of bonuses/penalties and whether they apply to all targets of the roll or just the targets they were garnered from. I think conditional bonuses/penalties should only apply to the target that they arise from. For example, a Bayushi Courtier should only be able to apply their free raises they get from their opponent's disadvantages only to that character and not the entire group roll.

IMO, I think Brian's ruling is actually a good idea, because the pertinent bonuses/penalties from previous attacks on different opponents would only apply to the opponent in question (not all the targets). Something like that helps us resolve what happens when we have a bunch of bonuses/penalties and whether they apply to all targets of the roll or just the targets they were garnered from. So does my bonus from my Kakita’s “First attack each the round” tech only apply to the first guy I designate DESPITE the text saying it is “a single attack”?

So does my bonus from my Kakita’s “First attack each the round” tech only apply to the first guy I designate DESPITE the text saying it is “a single attack”? If we clarifiy the kenshinzen rank 3 technique as mechanically a bunch of consecutive single attacks, then it could only apply to one opponent.

So does my bonus from my Kakita’s “First attack each the round” tech only apply to the first guy I designate DESPITE the text saying it is “a single attack”? If we clarifiy the kenshinzen rank 3 technique as mechanically a bunch of consecutive single attacks, then it could only apply to one opponent. Yes, but this is still a bad idea. I see no benefit in making it more then one attack and only problems if we do.

I see no benefit in making it more then one attack and only problems if we do. The benefit is that we treat these rolls as applying to a single opponent like they should, rather than worrying about the complexities of targeting multiple opponents. For example, when a shugenja targets multiple opponents with the same roll, the effect is applied seperately (such as increases in the TN and effect). So rather what I am saying that the good idea isn't that it is seperate attack rolls, but attack rolls applied seperately. The effects of these attack rolls depend on the bonus/penalties that apply to targeting a specific character. It's messy for characters like the Ronin Warrior, because we have to account that for the attack roll against that opponent there could be extra attack dice, but that's life I suppose. There is historical precedent for this when one looks back at the rulings for Initiative kata and how they interact with initiative.

I see no benefit in making it more then one attack and only problems if we do. The benefit is that we treat these rolls as applying to a single opponent like they should, rather than worrying about the complexities of targeting multiple opponents. For example, when a shugenja targets multiple opponents with the same roll, the effect is applied seperately (such as increases in the TN and effect). The effect is applies separately but it does not count as multiple castings with a single casting roll. When a shuenaja makes raises for targets they do no use up more spell slots.

I see no benefit in making it more then one attack and only problems if we do. The benefit is that we treat these rolls as applying to a single opponent like they should, rather than worrying about the complexities of targeting multiple opponents. For example, when a shugenja targets multiple opponents with the same roll, the effect is applied seperately (such as increases in the TN and effect). So rather what I am saying that the good idea isn't that it is seperate attack rolls, but attack rolls applied seperately. The effects of these attack rolls depend on the bonus/penalties that apply to targeting a specific character. Arrgh. Matsu/Kenshinzen. BAM, doing stupid amounts of damage to the later people. Also, Ancestral Hiruma Rank 5 and the Bees. Also, One Strike Blade. As Discussed. Much MUCH better to be one attack. Any tech or ability that relies on rolling attacks to get better will be hell to deal with if they are all singular attacks, what order do you resolve them in? Do they resolve simultaneously? How does that affect Cumulative Techs? Separate raises for each target. Raises merely modify the TN for the target, not the roll. Easy to deal with. On the subject of the rule of 10 and excess dice, say with Ronin Warrior: If you clock over, you will be generating different totals for each opponent, depending on the dice you keep. Apply the EFFECT of the rolled/kept extra die to each target. If you clock over from 13k4 to 14k4 on one target, changing to 10k5 or 10k6, for one target, keep 5, the other, keep 6. If you go from 9k3 to 12k3 (10k4), roll 1 extra different coloured dice, and keep 4 instead of 3. There is no problem here at all. I have played shadowrun 3rd ed, where your combat pool was separate, but also combined with your damage soak pool. that was a lot more complex. Example: Ronin Tsuka fights Kakita, Mirumoto, Hida, Moto. Tsuka's base attack is 8k4 round 1: Hida attacks Tsuka. die goes to Hida round 2: Hida, Kakita attack Tsuka, die goes to Kakita round 3: Hida, Kakita, Mirumoto attack Tsuka, die goes to Kakita round 4: Hida, Kakita, Mirumoto,Moto attack Tsuka, die goes to Kakita round 5: Hida, Kakita, Mirumoto,Moto attack Tsuka, die goes to Mirumoto round 6: Hida, Kakita, Mirumoto,Moto attack Tsuka, die goes to Mirumoto round 7: Hida, Kakita, Mirumoto,Moto attack Tsuka, die goes to Kakita round 7 - I wish to use my Kenshinzen 3 tech. I have: No bonus dice against Moto 1 bonus die against Hida 2 bonus dice against Mirumoto 4 bonus dice against Kakita I grab a red die, a green die and 8 white dice. (add further colours if you don't cap out this early) I nominate red for hida, red and green for mirumoto and Kakita. I roll 10 dice. My results are : 15,9,8,13,2,4,6,3,9,3. My attack rolls are as follows: Against Moto - 8k4, keep any 4 but the green or red dice. Total = 13 +8 +9 +6 = 36 Against Hida - 9k4, keep any 4 but the green die. Total = 15 +13 +8 +9 = 45 Against Mirumoto - 10k4 keep any 4. Total = 15 +9 +13 +9 = 46 Against Kakita - 10k5 keep any 5. Total = 15 +9 +13 +9 +8 = 54 One roll. The cap at 10k10 is actually a benefit, because you don't have to roll it more than once, you just count more dice into your total.

Did anybody read the WHOLE text of the technique? The Kenshinzen is so unimaginably fast that he can strike all of his opponents at once. You may forgo all of your normal attacks in a combat round to instead deliver a single attack to every enemy within 5' of you in that round. You make a single attack roll for this special maneuver, and compare it to each opponents TN to Be Hit. Thus, it is possible to strike some opponents while missing others. You may make raises on this attack Additionally, you may add twice your honor rank to the total of your initiative, replacing the benefit from rank 1 Bolded for EMphasis. 1) You make one roll. That is the RAW. 2) You may make raises. That is the RAW. 1A) However the interaction with other techniques does get interesting as noted. Ronin warrior does not apply. Why? If you are declared the target of an attack you gain one additional attack or damage die versus that opponent each round... The kenshinzen attack is against multiple opponents. Ronin duelist DOES apply Why? ... For every round you study an opponent you gain an additional rolled die on all attacks made against that opponent for the remainder of the day... The Kenshinzen attack is "an attack to every enemy in 5'" and thus is "made against that opponent" so you therefore gain additional die/dice on it. It is immaterial that you have not studied the other opponents, by RAW you gain bonus dice against ALL of them. The rank 4 has the same feature. Rank 5 ronin duelist does not, due to it's "special attack" nature. 2A) You may only make raises for damage or called shots. Why? Look at the maneuver descriptions they all say "against an opponent" or "against that enemy" they all use the singular. Despite mine being the burden of proof I'm going to trust we can all read page 168 to confirm this. Why is damage different? Well it says "You may declare a raise on an attack roll to increase your damage on that attack" nowhere does it use the singular or plural when referring to targets. Called shot is similar (and thankfully in the hands of GM's) My opinion of single rolls against multiple TN's? If someone has a bonus against one target let them apply that bonus to the whole roll. Risk manage it I say, tis more fun.

1. I say it's at one specific moment. 2. Bunch of single attacks on a number of opponents that is rolled as a single attack. Allow me to wallow in self-congratulatory bliss for a moment. VINDICATED! :P So does my bonus from my Kakita’s “First attack each the round” tech only apply to the first guy I designate DESPITE the text saying it is “a single attack”? Nothing in the rules says the Kenshinzen tech's attacks are consecutive. Much easier to consider them to be simultaneous (also see below). The bonus from the Kakita Bushi rank 5 tech then applies to all attacks that are part of the Kenshinzen tech (since technically they're all the first). So does my bonus from my Kakita’s “First attack each the round” tech only apply to the first guy I designate DESPITE the text saying it is “a single attack”? If we clarifiy the kenshinzen rank 3 technique as mechanically a bunch of consecutive single attacks, then it could only apply to one opponent. Bad idea. Simultaneous attacks I say, not consecutive! I see no benefit in making it more then one attack and only problems if we do. Benefit one: supports the notion of being able to gain conditional Raises and benefits against individual opponents, instead of gaining blanket bonuses (see the Ronin Duelist for example). Benefit two: supports the notion of being able to make Raises against each opponent individually rather than having to make the exact same package of Raises against anyone, even if that's nonsense (Called Shot to the human bushi's leg and at the same time to the Naga standing next to him?). Benefit three: disposes with the silly notion of shooting a single arrow at multiple opponents. I see at least three benefits, and very little in the way of problems. 1) Arrgh. Matsu/Kenshinzen. BAM, doing stupid amounts of damage to the later people. 2) Also, Ancestral Hiruma Rank 5 and the Bees. 3) Also, One Strike Blade. As Discussed. 4) Much MUCH better to be one attack. Any tech or ability that relies on rolling attacks to get better will be hell to deal with if they are all singular attacks, what order do you resolve them in? Do they resolve simultaneously? How does that affect Cumulative Techs? 1) Only if you consider the bunch of single attacks to be consecutive. Nothing in the rules says they are. One tech, bunch of simulteanous attacks. No problems with the Matsu Elite Guard. 2) First off, Ancestral Hiruma + Bees is a ridiculous notion. Second, this 'issue' is just as bad whether the Kenshinzen tech is one attack or a bunch of them. Wounds aren't carried over from one attack to the next, but from one target to the next. This is entirely irrelevant. 3) As discussed, I don't see a problem. Let's resolve our differences over that kata before we start using it as an argument here, shall we? 4) No, much MUCH better to be a bunch of attacks, provided they are considerd simultaneous. Solves all your problems. Making it 1 attack, OTOH, creates an issue with the Ronin Warrior. Making it a bunch of attacks makes that issue go away (even if mechanically dealing with that situation is anything but elegant). On the subject of the rule of 10 and excess dice, say with Ronin Warrior: If you clock over, you will be generating different totals for each opponent, depending on the dice you keep. Apply the EFFECT of the rolled/kept extra die to each target. If you clock over from 13k4 to 14k4 on one target, changing to 10k5 or 10k6, for one target, keep 5, the other, keep 6. If you go from 9k3 to 12k3 (10k4), roll 1 extra different coloured dice, and keep 4 instead of 3. There is no problem here at all. Doesn't need this houserule to work if you go with a bunch of attacks instead of one attack though. Example: Ronin Tsuka fights Kakita, Mirumoto, Hida, Moto. Tsuka's base attack is 8k4 round 1: Hida attacks Tsuka. die goes to Hida round 2: Hida, Kakita attack Tsuka, die goes to Kakita round 3: Hida, Kakita, Mirumoto attack Tsuka, die goes to Kakita round 4: Hida, Kakita, Mirumoto,Moto attack Tsuka, die goes to Kakita round 5: Hida, Kakita, Mirumoto,Moto attack Tsuka, die goes to Mirumoto round 6: Hida, Kakita, Mirumoto,Moto attack Tsuka, die goes to Mirumoto round 7: Hida, Kakita, Mirumoto,Moto attack Tsuka, die goes to Kakita round 7 - I wish to use my Kenshinzen 3 tech. I have: No bonus dice against Moto 1 bonus die against Hida 2 bonus dice against Mirumoto 4 bonus dice against Kakita Looks like we have yet another difference of opinion to bicker about (I mean, politely discuss ;) ): it's my understanding the bonus die isn't supposed to carry over from one round to the next. You get one, you use it, next round you can get another one. Did anybody read the WHOLE text of the technique? Why yes, yes I did. :) Ronin warrior does not apply. Why? If you are declared the target of an attack you gain one additional attack or damage die versus that opponent each round... The kenshinzen attack is against multiple opponents. No, the kenshinzen makes separate attacks, one against each opponent. Either way, I don't see the point of your remark to begin with. Even if the tech targets several opponents, that doesn't mean you can't get an additional die against one of them and not against the others. Ronin duelist DOES apply Why? ... For every round you study an opponent you gain an additional rolled die on all attacks made against that opponent for the remainder of the day... The Kenshinzen attack is "an attack to every enemy in 5'" and thus is "made against that opponent" so you therefore gain additional die/dice on it. It is immaterial that you have not studied the other opponents, by RAW you gain bonus dice against ALL of them. The rank 4 has the same feature. Rank 5 ronin duelist does not, due to it's "special attack" nature. Yet another situation where going with 'a bunch of single attacks' makes a lot more sense than 'one single attack'. The additional rolled dice the Ronin Duelist gets can consequently be applied to opponents that have been studied and don't apply to opponents that haven't been. 2A) You may only make raises for damage or called shots. Why? Look at the maneuver descriptions they all say "against an opponent" or "against that enemy" they all use the singular. Despite mine being the burden of proof I'm going to trust we can all read page 168 to confirm this. Why is damage different? Well it says "You may declare a raise on an attack roll to increase your damage on that attack" nowhere does it use the singular or plural when referring to targets. Called shot is similar (and thankfully in the hands of GM's) 'Bunch of single attacks' rather than 'one single attack'. No shenanigans with Raises being limited to specific purposes or Raises having to be called against all opponents even when that's undesirable and even when that doesn't make sense . My opinion of single rolls against multiple TN's? If someone has a bonus against one target let them apply that bonus to the whole roll. Risk manage it I say, tis more fun. Risk manage it? It doesn't make sense to gain a bonus against one opponent simply because you gain it against another for a reason that doesn't apply to the first. Why push for interpretations and rulings that don't make sense?

Nothing in the rules says the Kenshinzen tech's attacks are consecutive. Much easier to consider them to be simultaneous (also see below). The bonus from the Kakita Bushi rank 5 tech then applies to all attacks that are part of the Kenshinzen tech (since technically they're all the first). I support this as well. It supports the notion that the Kenshinzen is making a "single" attack. However, there is a breakdown when you consider how one simultaneous attack works with a bow and arrow. I fear that this could bring back the spectre of the "arrow" that killed 30 men.

TL,DR! But seriously. The idea behind this Technique is really quite simple, and I think some of you are overthinking it. The idea is that the Kenshinzen is the master of the single perfect stroke. Kenshinzen Steve is facing off against the ronin bandits Moe, Larry, and Curly. They have TNs of 15, 25, and 20, respectively. Steve envisions the perfect strike that will cut begin low and to the left, slice through the meat of Moe's thigh, across Larry's abdoment, and end its arc after slicing Curly's throat. Three dead (or dying) bandits, one flawless strike. So Steve ponies up. Let's say he's rolling 7k5. He chooses to make one Raise for damage. He rolls and gets a pretty decent result: 28. His strike cuts through Moe's leg as planned, but Larry's do-maru is thicker than he anticipated and Larry is not cut. Still, the strike continues as envisioned and gets Curly right in the pipes, just like Steve knew that it would. Time to roll for damage against Moe and Curly! I think that's pretty straightforward from the language.

So Steve ponies up. Let's say he's rolling 7k5. He chooses to make one Raise for damage. He rolls and gets a pretty decent result: 28. His strike cuts through Moe's leg as planned, but Larry's do-maru is thicker than he anticipated and Larry is not cut. Still, the strike continues as envisioned and gets Curly right in the pipes, just like Steve knew that it would. Time to roll for damage against Moe and Curly! So you are treating the technique like a spell. That seems like a better idea than consecutive or simultaneous attacks as there is precedent in the rules for multi-targeting different opponents with the same roll. Thus, I gather you envision that the attack roll is just applied to each target seperately and appropriate bonuses/penalties are applied (my basis for this statement being how magic resistance works).

TL,DR! But seriously. The idea behind this Technique is really quite simple, and I think some of you are overthinking it. The idea is that the Kenshinzen is the master of the single perfect stroke. Kenshinzen Steve is facing off against the ronin bandits Moe, Larry, and Curly. They have TNs of 15, 25, and 20, respectively. Steve envisions the perfect strike that will cut begin low and to the left, slice through the meat of Moe's thigh, across Larry's abdoment, and end its arc after slicing Curly's throat. Three dead (or dying) bandits, one flawless strike. So Steve ponies up. Let's say he's rolling 7k5. He chooses to make one Raise for damage. He rolls and gets a pretty decent result: 28. His strike cuts through Moe's leg as planned, but Larry's do-maru is thicker than he anticipated and Larry is not cut. Still, the strike continues as envisioned and gets Curly right in the pipes, just like Steve knew that it would. Time to roll for damage against Moe and Curly! I think that's pretty straightforward from the language. That is EXACTLY what it does…in the simple case. But what happens when Steve gets two Free Raises to hit Moe, +2k2 to hit Larry and has know the School 5 versus Curly (+5 to his roll)? The tech further says that raises can be declared on this attack, so what if he wants to raise once on Moe for damage, raise twice on Larry for Knockdown and three times on Curly for a Disarm? Also, NOTHING in the tech say it has to be used with a melee attack, letting one arrow kill multiple targets. You could also in theory GRAPLLE everyone within 5’ of you.

Thus, I gather you envision that the attack roll is just applied to each target seperately and appropriate bonuses/penalties are applied. And it is meant to be stationary like "whirlwind" attack. Also, how does this work with ranged attacks. Do we fire one arrow that flies in a circles around us, killing multiple guys?

But what happens when Steve gets two Free Raises to hit Moe, +2k2 to hit Larry and has know the School 5 versus Curly (+5 to his roll)? Well, that is as much an issue for shugenja as it is for this technique. So I think that is a good question to ask regardless of this technique.

View Full Version: Kenshinzen are FUN! and broke.