Non-Bugei Duels and Contested Social Rolls
Are the Non-Bugei Duels, Contested Social Rolls? Specifically, I am talking about the Pure Competitions where you can end up with one or both of the contestants rolling Ring/Skill.

Is it a non-physical interaction? Remember, there are two parts to the definition of a Social Roll, meeting either part is sufficient.

That said, I do wonder why anyone would ever chose the Trait in a Pure Competition. Why not pick the Ring the Trait is tied to? Even though it is now non-cannon, I still intend to pick 3 Traits (or 2 Traits and a Ring) for each type of 'generic' contest. If the contest comes with specific new rules, great - I'll use those. Otherwise, I'm using the rules from the core manual.

You are only referencing half of the definition. You keep omitting: Any Skill that involves non-physical interaction with another person is a Social Skill, and its use is a Social Skill Roll.

Heck the book gives an example of kenjutsu being used as a lore skill. Any skill could possibly have 'contested social skill' uses. But are not, in all cases, social skills. An argument over the feeding patterns of patterned zebra fish might degenerate into a contested lore:tropical fish/awareness roll as a contested social skill roll. Use the type descriptors as a guide, use the definition as a guide. The book gives lots of explicit leeway to the GM as to what is and isnt a certain type of roll. So yeah, coop has it right, non martial duels could often be contested social skill rolls. Kemari is not social however, its a physical games skill roll. etc etc.

Maybe I am not making my point clear. The book seperrates Skill Rolls and Contested Rolls into two rules blocks on page 158 and 159. This is the most common sort of roll. To use a Skill, you roll a number of dice equal to your relevant Trait + Skill, keeping a number of dice equal to the Trait, as described in the Skill section of the Book of Water (page 87) ... The default Target Number of a Skill Roll is 15. More difficult tasks may impose higher a Target Number. Skill Rolls are Trait + Skill and they are rolled against Target Numbers. Any Skill that involves non-physical interaction with another person is a Social Skill, and its use is a Social Skill Roll. A Social Skill Roll occurs when a Social Roll is rolled against a Target Number. A Contested Roll is essentially any of the previous types of rolls made in direct competition with another character (either PC or NPC). For example, two characters engaged in a poetry contest would engage in a Contested Skill Roll. A footrace might result in a Contested Raw Agility Roll. These are resolved just like any roll, except that the Target Number is equal to the competitor's result. A Contested Skill Roll is one where there is at least one competitor, and each competitor rolls Trait + Skill against a TN equal to the result of the other competitor(s). Any Contested Skill Roll that involves only Awareness, Willpower, Intelligence, or Perception and is of a non-violent nature is also a Social Skill Roll, even if the Skills invovlved are not normally Social Skill Rolls. If the Contested roll fits the above criteria, it becomes a Contested Social Skill Roll. You are only referencing half of the definition. You keep omitting: (the first sentence) The reason I disregard this sentence is because it does not apply to Contested Rolls. Pure Competitions are Contested Rolls. Some of them might qualify as Contested Social Skill Rolls. However, I see some complications that can arise because of the fact that the duel involves Traits and Rings. Clearly, you don't see things the way that I have laid them out above. My question to you is what situation does the second sentence cover that is not already covered by the first sentence, given your interpretation?

So let me get this straight. You're saying that it is a Social Skill Roll, and it is a Contested Skill Roll, but it's not a Contested Social Skill Roll? *** However, you asked for an example of something that violates the first definition (non-physical interaction) but meets the second (contested skill roll using only the 'mental traits'). How about a healer trying to use massage to relax someone who doesn't want to relax? If the GM for some reason rules that it is an Intelligence/Medicine vs. Willpower/Athletics roll, then it is an Opposed Social Skill Roll even though there is physical interaction and neither skill is tagged with 'Social.'

Alright, I talked with Tsukaede and he said that there is just no way that the rules on page 93 are going to be able to apply to Pure Contest duels.

Well the rules on pg 93 were pretty busted before Pure Contest came along anyway. Do we have any draft of what we're thinking of using instead - or will the only things to count as Social Skills durring Pure Contests be those skills that actually carry the "Social" tag? (i.e. Courtier, Etiquette, Games, Storytelling and Deceit)