Sasumata & Sodegarami (Or grappling with a pointy stick)
the Sasumata and sodegarami intiate grappling like chain weapons. And the rules for grappling says that whoever gains control of the grapple can either inflict damage and hold them motionless, or release the grapple. So my question is, Samurai Bob has a sasumata, and makes contact with Samurai Joe. First round, Samurai Bob has control and cuts up S.J. a little bit. Second round, Samurai Joe's great strength lets him gain control of the grapple. Can Samurai Joe inflict any damage on Samurai Bob while remaining in the grapple, while SJ is at the pointy end of the stick? If so, how? I grant you that the common sense thing would be for SJ to stop the grapple and use his own weapon or for SB to drop the sasumata, but there's not a real rule for this. And if SJ happens to have greater strength, why not keep SB around for as long as SB tries to vainly cling onto the sasumata? If: SB---<SJ Does SJ hurt SB?

According to the Rules as Written, yes SJ can hurt SB (silly, no?). Thankfully we are currently reviewing the grapple rules and hope to present the DT with some viable alternatives that take things like this into consideration.

By the RAW you CAN hurt them back. The real question: “Is there any reason I should rule that you can’t?”

my one thought that common sense tells me, is that Samurai Bob could just release the sasumata/sodegarami whenever he wanted, thereby ending the grapple when he wished. Samurai Joe, on the other hand, has to break out of the grapple by winning control of it. IF he's unable to do any damage to SB after gaining control, the only thing left to him is to end the grapple. But that probably leaves SB with another chance to hit SJ with a new grapple attempt, so basically...why doesn't everyone use one of these weapons if they have a high init/strength combination? If SJ can't attack, and must use his action/turn to win free, then Bob gets another chance to hold SJ down and keep him from doing anything. I think that's how the weapons are meant to be used, but it's not clear whether or not SJ can win the grapple and trap SB in it and start to do damage in return.

Me and commonsense rarely tell each other anything. We had a falling out some time back and were still not talking A sane house rule would allow samurai bob to release the grapple at any time by dropping the sodegarmi/sasumata Samuari Joe could hit bob in the face with the butt end for regular hth damage, or end the grapple SJ should be allowed to damage SB... the price of grappling. Shinjitsu...for your grapplez0r rulez?

the sasumata & sodegarami (pg 176) "may be used to inflict damage in a grapple that it created." The only reason I can see for it not being allowed, is that even if SJ wins control of the grapple, SB still has his hands on the stick. I could see SJ pushing him back some, even trying to wrest the polearm out of his hands. But beating him upside the head? Poking him with the blunt end of the stick? That's far different then getting poked with all the spikes and blades on the end of one of the polearms. At the very least, it'd need to be less damage then the end of the stick that's supposed to damage, no?

There is nothing that would prevent the non-chain user to do damage, if he won the grapple for the round. The only consollation is that the nasty weapon on the end of that chain is more damaging then the unarmed damage of the non-chain bushi. Assuming the non-chain user got knocked prone, and then entangled and thus, grappled. My question is what happens when the non-chain wins and wants to get out of the grapple? Does he get to throw the entangling chains off, stand up, and proceed to wail on the chain user, with his weapon intact? Or, does it take more time then that?

The RAW problem on this one comes from the weapon description. The weapon description limit itself to : You are the considered to be grappling the opponent. It doesn't specify : 1 : At which step of the grapple you are : Contact roll, Contested roll or In control. Most GM assumed part #3 but there is nothing to confirm it. 2 : What happens if you lose control of the grapple when you are using a grapple weapon like a Chain Weapon or a Sodegarami. Logic would point out that if you get out of such a grapple you would likely roll over (because you are prone) or reach for your weapon (because you are disarmed) not jump on the guy who is some feet away from you grappling you with a sharp pole or a chain. The RAW on this one is simple. If you are the victim of such a grapple if you win the contested roll you gain control of the grapple and start arming the guy with your fist or tanto. Exemple : Yasuki Furubu launch a terrible assault on Togashi Chouji sending him on the ground. Using his long reach and the many grappling hook of his weapon he pins Chouji on the ground and draw his blood. Frowning from the pain Chouji grab the weapon and firmly plant it on the ground using it as a leverage to launch himself on Furubu and binding him in a deadly lock. That was one action.

Thank you for the reply, Malempo. The RAW on this one is simple. If you are the victim of such a grapple if you win the contested roll you gain control of the grapple and start arming the guy with your fist or tanto. The text states, "On his turn, the combatant who controls the grapple can choose to either release the grapple or inflict damage on the opponent and hold him motionless for one round." I wanted to know if the "release" part was all you could do in that action or if there was more.

I can see a chain being used to keep the orignal grappler in the grapple, and to hurt the other guy with it. Twist the chain around the guy's limb, or pull him close enough to punch/stab him. But the two weapons i'm talking about are specifically designed to have one end be where the person is grappled, and the other end be far enough away that the person grappled in the first place, can't hurt the grappler. That's their purpose. They do all of 1k1 damage, but they're meant to trap/capture someone, not to do big bits of damage. If you can explain to me how the blunt/stick end of a polearm can keep someone in a grapple, then I'd agree that the person grappled (Samurai Joe) can damage the holder of the polearm (Samurai Bob).