She's Crafty...she's just my type.

She's Crafty...she's just my type.
Crafty (the advantage) give you a Phantom Rank in all Low Skills. First off, I like the term phantom rank. Congrats to you. Now then what constitues a "Low" skill? I know that there is a class of skills called "Low" but several of those skills get modified according to Clan or family. For instance Shadowlands lore is a bugei skill for Crab. So would a Crab with Crafty get the bonus? Since it's a Bugei skill, would they get the bonus with Crab Hands? What if he had both? What about Sage (free raise on Lore skills?) How about if he had Fukurokujin's Blessing (free insight pt for each Lore skill at 3+)? By what's been established he'd get the bonus, correct? If these Clans/families don't get the bonus, Crafty is not as useful to them. Why don't they get a discount?

I believe it states that the phantom rank doesn't apply for insight rank, so therefore the bonus recieved from Fukorokujins blessing also seems like it wouldn't apply.

But it's not for typical insight rank calculation. It's an effect generated by the fact that the person has a Lore skill at R3+. So you ask teh questions: Do you have FB? Yes. Do you have a Lore Skill? yes. (assuming Shadowlands Lore is a lore skill) Is it R3+ ? This is the nut of this particular Q. If it gives a Phantom rank, it's still a Rank, right?

For instance Shadowlands lore is a bugei skill for Crab. So would a Crab with Crafty get the bonus? No, Crafty says that, "your rank in all Low Skills is considered 1 higher than it actually is." If the skill is not a Low Skill, it does not receive Crafty's bonus. Since it's a Bugei skill, would they get the bonus with Crab Hands? What if he had both? Crab Hands says, "Your rank in all Weapon Skills is considered 1 rank higher than it actually is." If the Bugei Skill is also a Weapon Skill, then Crab Hands would apply. So, if you have Crafty and Crab Hands, you get two phantom ranks in Ninja Ranged Weapons. What about Sage (free raise on Lore skills?) Sage applies to Anatomy, Shadowlands Lore, and Underworld Lore. How about if he had Fukurokujin's Blessing (free insight pt for each Lore skill at 3+)? Crafty says, "This additional rank is not counted when calculating Insight." Fukurokujin's Blessing says, "you gain 1 Insight for every Lore skill you have above rank 3." Since the additional rank from Crafty is not counted when calculating Insight, Fukurokujin's Blessing is prohibited from considering it for its Insight bonus. But it's not for typical insight rank calculation. It's an effect generated by the fact that the person has a Lore skill at R3+. So you ask teh questions: You will have to find some support in the RAW for your assertion that Fukurokujin's Blessing is not part of "calculating insight." If the FB's Insight were never calculated, how would the advantage work? This is the nut of this particular Q. If it gives a Phantom rank, it's still a Rank, right? It is a rank that comes with a prohibition. That prohibition prevents it from being counted for calculation of Insight. Go back and read that sentence carefully.

Re: She's Crafty...she's just my type.
Now then what constitues a "Low" skill? I know that there is a class of skills called "Low" but several of those skills get modified according to Clan or family. I would rule that it applies to all the skills under the Low Skills Heading, and only those skills, regardless of whether or not some of the Low Skills are conditionally considered not low skills, or whether a non-low skill is conditionally considered a low skill. That's just my opinion. I think it's the only way to rule it that doesn't lead to complications.

THANK you for that mental image.

I did not say it was not part of calculating insight. I said it was not typical, meaning it lies outside the Rings+Skills boosts+ insight boosts for certain skills model. It adds another variable in that calculation, another variable that is dependent on Rank Level, which is a concern for Crafty. It does not matter how you dice it, Sage (and anything else that gives Insight) is part of the process for calculating insight. And this sentence, "This additional rank is not counted when calculating Insight," keeps phantom ranks out of the calculation process. It also adds an odd little hiccup- Crafty Crab (who arguably need it the most) don't get a bump in Lore-Shadowlands. Altho mechanicly this may make sence, theme wise it crawls up my butt and dies sideways... That sounds like it hurts. Why did you make a Crafty, Fukurokujin Blessed Sage, with Crab Hands? That seems like a stretch to me.

OK, Now I grok. domo I'm not sayin I did make one, but ya gotta allow for non-munchkin, weird ass builds or else those wierd ass builds can find a weakness and become munchkinlike. And while we are stretching my butt, does the Crafty crab Shadowlands lore feel wrong to anyone else? And let's not mention "stretch" and "my butt" on the same forum ever again, shall we?

Well first of all, it is just the RAW. I doubt that the writers even considered Crafty when they made some Low Skills into Bugei Skills. Hell, I bet if you asked Shawn, he would think that they did a favor to the Crab because they can use and talk about their Shadowlands Lore without losing honor for it being a Low Skill. Inu probably has the right idea about Crafty, but the RAW says what is says. If you and your GM don't like the RAW, change it. I sure do. And let's not mention "stretch" and "my butt" on the same forum ever again, shall we? I was about to ask if you got drunk and passed out, only to wake up to the worst night of your life? :?

Yeah, I'd be tempted to go with Inu's definition of "Low" skills, and be done with it. If you don't go with that, how do you work skills like Calligraphy, which is sometimes Low and sometimes not?

Yeah, I'd be tempted to go with Inu's definition of "Low" skills, and be done with it. If you don't go with that, how do you work skills like Calligraphy, which is sometimes Low and sometimes not? Easy. When using a non-normal skill as a low skill, you rank increases by 1 from Crafty. What is the problem? I see no problemswith conditional phantom skill ranks.

The problem lies with these conditional ranks means that you are better in another clans secret script than yours, even if you have your clan's script as another emphisis (which is not a prerequisite). Using the definition of "Low Skills" as those in the "Low Skills" definition, it's no problem. But if Crafty becomes conditional, you wind up with wierd things like the Crab Shadowlands lore issue (see my butt, dies sideways) and a Calligrapher that is +1d better at other clans secret script than their own. I'd like to think that this is not a RAW issue as ther is grey area on both sides, but rather an issue of common sence.

The problem lies with these conditional ranks means that you are better in another clans secret script than yours, even if you have your clan's script as another emphisis (which is not a prerequisite). This is untrue. All Clans also have their own specific cipher, used on shugenja scrolls and other private texts. This cipher cannot be written or read without the proper cipher. But if Crafty becomes conditional, you wind up with wierd things like the Crab Shadowlands lore issue (see my butt, dies sideways) and a Calligrapher that is +1d better at other clans secret script than their own. Your Calligraphy issue only arises when you have another Clan's cipher or you are teaching your Clan's cipher to another who does not have permission. Since this is a big breach of security of the clan, I don't have a problem with letting Crafty work in that limited circumstance. It seems like a sneaky Crafty kind of thing to do. As far as a Crab with Shadowlands Lore goes, see Asahina Inu's response.

Incidently, unless I'm forgetting some eratta (which is entirely possible), Ninja Ranged Weapons is not actually a Low Skill. Nothing in its description lists it as Low, or as acting as a Low skill under certain circumstances. As a Result, Crab Hands applies to Ninja Ranged Weapons, but Crafty does not. *** As for Low Lore Skills (like Underworld or Shadowlands Lore), you may apply the bonus from both Crafty and Sage.

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