Shugenja and Multiple Schools

Shugenja and Multiple Schools
I just realized that Shugenja not gaining techniques from other Shugenja schools is inherantly linked to them actually taking the Multiple Schools advantage as described on page 110 of the main book. The signifigance of this being that if a Shugenja gains another Shugenja school without the aid of the Multiple Schools advantage then he gains the Technique of that school. I think that this is the reason why paths work, as they do not require the MS advantage if you follow the paths of entrance and egress. The same goes for Advanced schools which merely require you to meet the prerequisites. This also solves that age old question as to whether or not a Moto Priest gains the Iuchi Shugenja Technique upon egressing. This does make for some interesting rules situations however. For example a Shugenja who goes into a path by buying MS instead of using the path of entrance does not gain the Technique. However lets say a Tamori Shugenja Multi-Schools into a Moto Priest, he would not gain the Moto Technique because of the rules for MS for shugenja, but he would gain the Iuchi Shugenja Technique upon egressing because he did not purchase MS to get into that school. Edited a typo

So what happens when a non-shugenja mutl-schools into a Shugenja path? Would he get the technique?

So what happens when a non-shugenja mutl-schools into a Shugenja path? Would he get the technique? Yes. The Multiple School restrictions for gaining the techniques are for characters that are already shugenja who are multiple schooling into another shugenja school. A non-shugenja Multiple Schooling into a shugenja path would gain the technique just as a non-shugenja Multiple Schooling into a standard Shugenja school would gain the technique of that school.

Right. This is why all shugenja should start entering and leaving New Paths and Advanced Paths just as soon as they can. Multi Schooling into another Shugenja School = bad. Taking a New Path = good. :D

Oh geesh., A Shugenja could just leave his school at Rank 2 and enter a Starting Shugenja Path and then exit to the normal Shugenja school, then enter a new starting shugenja path (for free?) and repeat and get a new tech every rank.

Oh geesh., A Shugenja could just leave his school at Rank 2 and enter a Starting Shugenja Path and then exit to the normal Shugenja school, then enter a new starting shugenja path (for free?) and repeat and get a new tech every rank.Actually no. As I was saying in the Thread on the AEG board None for a Path of Entry means that a Path of Entry does not exist. This means that you cannot qualify for free entry into those paths as you can't follow a path of entry that does not exist. Therefore you have to pay for the MS advantage if you want to enter the path. A shugenja using MS to enter another Shugenja school does not gain the Technique of the new school. Therefore if you say Start as a Tamori Shugenja 1 you get that technique. Then you become a Tamori Yamabushi 2 you get that technique as you followed the path of entry. After that you Enter the Moto Death Priest and since you cannot fulfil a path of Entry that does not exist you must pay for Multiple Schools. Since you attained the school through the MS advantage you do not gain the Moto Priest Technique. After that you go into the Iuchi Shugenja School 1 and since you followed the path of egress for the Moto Priest you do get the Iuchi Technique. Lets say for the next rank you are an idiot and try to directly enter the Asahina Sohei path, since you don't qualify for the path of Entry then you must purchase MS and therefore do not gain the Sohei Technique. Following that since you are unable to meet the path of exit to the Sohei, you must purchase MS to enter any other school you take next and would not gain the Technique of that next Isawa school rank that you took. I ignored AFF/DEF requirements so I didn't have to look them up, as the specific schools weren't so pertinant to what I was saying, so their may be some illegal combinations from that as a disclaimer. So to make it visually simpler a shugenja who goes from school to school in the following order: Tamori Shugenja 1/Tamori Yamabushi 2/Moto Death Priest 1/Iuchi Shugenja 1/Asahina Sohei 3/Isawa Shugenja 1 Gets the following techniques: Tamori Shugenja, Tamori Yamabushi, and Iuchi Shugenja Does not get the following technues as the school ws attained with MS: Moto Death Priest, Asahina Sohei, Isawa Shugenja. BTW Tsukaede under the previous understanding of how Shugenja paths worked it was possible to gain a Shugenja Technique at everyrank since their seemed to be no restriction to gaining the techniques of a shugenja path if one MS into them. Therefore a Kitsu S/Yamabushi/Sohei/Asako Inq/Chosen Pheonix/Moto priest/Shugenja Path X, would gain all 8 of those techniques. With my current understanding of the rules it is almost impossible to gain multiple Shugenja Techniques via paths other than the one that are naturally part of your schools progression. So a character who wants both the Yamabushi Path and the Sohei Path techniques are going to have to sludge their way through both base schools in order to attain both paths without using MS. Even at that they will still not get one of the base schools techniques as it would require the MS advantage to attain the second base school. The only thing that you could really do to attain a second base schools Technique is to find a entry level path that egresses into that school at rank 1 and MS into that path. That would of course deny you the entry level Paths Technique as you would have to multi school into it.

Asahina Inu We are having this debate over 2 forums and like 4 threads. I have some boring, mechanical questions for you about how you think these work versus the way that I think they may work. If you don't mind, I am going to try to keep it all here. "Paths have a Path of Entry requirement, which states the exact school and School Rank a character must be in order to be accepted into the dojo." (page 14, 4 Winds) "Similarly, New Paths have a Path of Egress. This specifies what school the student may attend after his training in the New Path has been completed and he is ready to advance more." (page 14, 4 Winds) "As long as the character follows both the Path of Entry and the Path of Egress, the Multiple School Advantage is not required and no cost is incurred." (page 14, 4 Winds) The way I have interpreted this mechanic to work, in the past, is if I meet the Path of Entry requirement, I do not need to buy the Multiple School Advantage in order to buy this path. If I follow the Path of Egress, I do not have to purchase the Multiple School Advantage in order to take my next school. I want to know how you think these work? What happens if I meet the Path of Entry and buy the path, then when I decide not to follow the Path of Egress? Do I have to go back and buy Multiple School (which I did not buy when I picked up the path) for the path now? Or, do I pick up Multiple School for the path that I am going into next? I think that we may be interpretting things differently, here.

I think it was clarified somewhere that Following both the Path of Entry and Egress for a path were handled seperately. The sentence still makes sense because if you follow the Path of Entry and Egress both then you do not have to purchase it on either ends. I'm not sure if the clarification was ever made official though. Edit: So you would only have to purchase MS for violating the path of Egress. Assuming that the clarification was ever made. Incidentally this thread wasn't meant to be about whether or not someone had to pay for MS for path jumping(That one is on the AEG boards). This thread was supposed to be about the fact that Shugenjas not gaining a tech when entering another school is an inherant part of how MS work for Shugenha, and not a general rule for them entering a school through any means. This actually is an explanation as to why Shugenja can gain the Shugenja Techniques of Advanced Schools and Paths(when they follow the appropriate course) and why they gemnerally dont for regular shugenja schools. The Former require no MS advantage while the latter do, I see no problem with talking about the Path disscussion however.

That is the way that I have always interpreted the mechanic to work. Incidentally this thread wasn't meant to be about whether or not someone had to pay for MS for path jumping(That one is on the AEG boards). This thread was supposed to be about the fact that Shugenjas not gaining a tech when entering another school is an inherant part of how MS work for Shugenha, and not a general rule for them entering a school through any means. This actually is an explanation as to why Shugenja can gain the Shugenja Techniques of Advanced Schools and Paths(when they follow the appropriate course) and why they gemnerally dont for regular shugenja schools. The Former require no MS advantage while the latter do, I see no problem with talking about the Path disscussion however. I posted my question here because you never answered it back on the AEG Forum when I originally posted it. I figured between all of the open threads, it would be better to ask it again here then over there.

That is the way that I have always interpreted the mechanic to work. I posted my question here because you never answered it back on the AEG Forum when I originally posted it. I figured between all of the open threads, it would be better to ask it again here then over there. I must have missed it. Sorry. :oops: That thread is rather hectic, and I'm getting questions from several different people on the subject.

Oh geesh., A Shugenja could just leave his school at Rank 2 and enter a Starting Shugenja Path and then exit to the normal Shugenja school, then enter a new starting shugenja path (for free?) and repeat and get a new tech every rank. Actually no. As I was saying in the Thread on the AEG board None for a Path of Entry means that a Path of Entry does not exist. This means that you cannot qualify for free entry into those paths as you can't follow a path of entry that does not exist. Therefore you have to pay for the MS advantage if you want to enter the path. That is what I have been trying to say. However you seem to disagree with that point here: 2. I have a Hare Woodland Tracker (Four Winds Sourcebook) who just hit Insight Rank 2. He was wondering if he could advance into the Ujina Skirmisher Path (School Update). Personally, I have no problem with this but was wondering what everyone else's opinion was. Yes he can. He'll just have to pay 5 point for the Multiple School advanatge.Ronin-San I would tend to agree with you on this matter. The woodland Trackers path of egress is in to any minor clan bushi school. Seeing as the Ujina skirmisher is a rank one entry path for the ujina bushi school as a GM I would have no problem with it. Actually I think Kei is correct here Tsukaede. I hadn't thought of it before. Ujina Skirmisher actually meets all of the criteria for the Woodland tracker Path of egress. Paths count as schools, It is a Bushi school, it is of the appropriate clan, It is Rank 1, Entry level paths have no Path of entry requirements to violate. I'm pretty sure this fills all of the rules criteria. This post of your seemed to indicate that the Tracker that egresses into a Minor clan school 1 can egress into the starting Path of the Ujina Skirmishers without paying for multiple schools despite the fact that the entry requirement of the Skirmishers is “none”.

This post of your seemed to indicate that the Tracker that egresses into a Minor clan school 1 can egress into the starting Path of the Ujina Skirmishers without paying for multiple schools despite the fact that the entry requirement of the Skirmishers is “none”.Yep that is exactly what I was saying. Even before rereading the path rules and finding that the conditions for skipping MS is a special allowance rather than an additional ban this was my stance. A Path is treated as a School for all intents and purposes, this means that if their is no Path of Entry than there is none to violate, and it is entered throught the means you would attain any other school. This does not mean that you can enter the school willy nilly, however. You gain the benifits of not having to take MS by correctly taking a Path of Entry or Egress, in the case of a path with None under the description this means that it is impossible to fullfill an Path of Entry requirement to get that bonus, so you can not ignore the MS requirement for that reason. I merely mentioned that there was no path of Entry to Violate because of an earlier understanding that there was an additional MS cost for Violating a Path of Entry or Egress. So this meant that you could not enter a Path of Entry:None without paying for MS normally as there was no path of Entry to qualify for, however, the same lack of a path of entry made it so that there was no Path of Entry to violate should that path otherwise qualify for another paths Path of Egress. The reason that the Path of Entry:None for schools was important ceased to matter when I looked further into how the rule worked and realized that the ability to avoid the MS advantage for following a path of Entry/Egress is a special allowance to the rule that says if you switch schools you must purchase MS, rather than a special additional requirement should you not follow the PoE. This means that if you are going into a Path that you meet the Path of Entry for, or that if you leave a path via the correct Path of Egress, it does not matter whether or not you qualify for the POEntry or Exit of the other school for that school change. Basically you check to see whether the path you are leaving from or the path you are going into is an appropriate qualification to get the free school change for the other path, and if it either qualifies than you don't require MS. Edit: The problem was that you were seeing those two different arguements as mutually exclusive. A non-existant path of entry for the Ujina skirmishers means that there is no free way to enter that path through the path of Entry from that path itself, but that does not preclude free entrance into the Skirmisher from the Woodland Tracker through correctly following the Woodland Trackers Path of Egress, which the SKirmisher meets all of the Woodland Trackers Path of Egress qualifications. This is just like that there is no free way to enter the Usagi Bushi School granted by the school itself, but the Ujina Skirmishers Path of Egress would allow them to do so.

Geese, there's a reason why I house rule that you can only have 1 shugenja tech ever, and only if you have no non-shugenja techs. (MS, and alternate Paths allow you to switch which Tech that is, but do not allow you to increase the number of Techs). Incidently, if they ever make it so that there is a disadvantage to taking a Shugenja Path, I might change this rule.

Geese, there's a reason why I house rule that you can only have 1 shugenja tech ever, and only if you have no non-shugenja techs. (MS, and alternate Paths allow you to switch which Tech that is, but do not allow you to increase the number of Techs). Incidently, if they ever make it so that there is a disadvantage to taking a Shugenja Path, I might change this rule.Shugenja's having onl one Technique was just a design flaw to begin with. They obviously decided that MS would be an auto take for Shugenja, so they put in the rules for not gaining other Shigenja Techs through MS, but then they already knew that they were going to have to deal with paths at some later date, and dropped the ball. Realistically if they had made all base shugenja Techniques dependant on School Rank for effectiveness than they would never have had to deal with this situation. Incidentally how do you rule Advanced Shugenja Schools? Allowing them only one of those techniques doesn't seem like it would work. Actually I am more happy with the fact that paths ignore all MS restrictions, as that eliminates the "get the shugenja path technqique by fiat" that was trying to be fed us, and instead gives a legitimate reason as to why you gain the Technique. It also makes it so that Shugenja can't jump paths willy nilly with MS to get a full 8 techniques, since not following the Paths correctly would force them to abide by the notmal restrictions of Multiple Schools, meaning that they wouldn't gain those techniques. So really at most a Shugenja wouldn't be able to get probably more than 1 non Advanced School Shugenja Technique outside of their initial School's line of advancement, as they would have to slog through different base schools in order to meet the Path of Entry requirement to get the Path technique. It's just an odd side effect that you can get the Iuchi tech through inneffectually MSing through the Moto Priest. Even then you are still only gaining one Technique out of it and I don't think that Shugenja and Shugenja Path Techniques, as a whole, are really of a different power level as to make a difference that way.

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