Skill and Trait max Can someone please find the rule in the book that says skills and traits max out at 10?
Togashi Shinjitsu- 02-19-2007
On Rings.
Rings havea scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being below average and 10 being superhuman. Most samurai have Rings between 2 and 5. Exceptional individuals may possess rings of 6 or 7, and truly legendary heroes may have one or more Rings of 8 or even 9. No mortal creature has ever achieve a Ring of 10, though divine creatures such as Fortunes or foul demons such as Oni may attain such power.
On Skills
Like Rings and Traits, Skill ranks range from 1 to 10. A rank of 1 in a particular Skill indicates that the character has been introduced to the basic elements of that particular activity. A rank of 10 in a Skill is exceptionally rare, possessed by only a handful of individuals throughout the Empire."
Shawn Carman clarified that Skill rank 10 was a hard cap. By reverse inference, Traits and Rings cap at 10 as well.
Doji Tsukaede- 02-19-2007
Well Isawa Chuckles was pointing out that skill go from 1 to 10 and thus if you have no ranks in a skill then you have a 1 rank in the skill since the min is 1.
However, characters that have no void do not have a void of 1.
Togashi Shinjitsu- 02-19-2007
Well Isawa Chuckles was pointing out that skill go from 1 to 10 and thus if you have no ranks in a skill then you have a 1 rank in the skill since the min is 1.
However, characters that have no void do not have a void of 1.
Difference between a NULL value and 0.
If you don't have ranks in the skill, you aren't on the scale.
Like Ronin and Status. They don't have it.
It is like trying to count how many times you have run around your back yard, when you don't have a back yard. 0 isn't right, because there isn't even the possibility of you doing it.
The error returned is not - "index out of bounds" but "data type undefined" when you ask what rank they have in the skill.
Doji Tsukaede- 02-19-2007
Difference between a NULL value and 0.
If you don't have ranks in the skill, you aren't on the scale.
Like Ronin and Status. They don't have it.
It is like trying to count how many times you have run around your back yard, when you don't have a back yard. 0 isn't right, because there isn't even the possibility of you doing it.
The error returned is not - "index out of bounds" but "data type undefined" when you ask what rank they have in the skill.
I fully agree but explaining the null set is difficult to people at times and when people go "It says that skills go from 1 to 10, thus I have 1 in every skill, so please errata," is annoying.
Togashi Shinjitsu- 02-19-2007
Difference between a NULL value and 0.
If you don't have ranks in the skill, you aren't on the scale.
Like Ronin and Status. They don't have it.
It is like trying to count how many times you have run around your back yard, when you don't have a back yard. 0 isn't right, because there isn't even the possibility of you doing it.
The error returned is not - "index out of bounds" but "data type undefined" when you ask what rank they have in the skill.
I fully agree but explaining the null set is difficult to people at times and when people go "It says that skills go from 1 to 10, thus I have 1 in every skill, so please errata," is annoying.
Like asking how many seconds it takes a car to go from 0-100km if the car can't actually go that fast. The answer isn't 0 seconds. That would be instantaneous. The answer isn't infinity, because the car will never reach that speed. Ever. The number of seconds the car takes to go from 0-100 is <Not Applicable>.
Your rank in a skill you don't have ranks in is "Not Applicable" or "unskilled".
Why don't they whine about this in D20? It has the same issue.
I agree with the annoying bit.
Toku Yojiro- 02-20-2007
Skills don't go from 1 to 10. Skill *ranks* go from 1 to 10. If you don't have ranks, you can't claim to have 1 because that's where they start. If you have no ranks in a skill, you're not rank 0. You have no rank period, so you can't claim it must be 1 because that's the minimum.
Matsu Katsumoto- 02-20-2007
The only skills a character "start" with an actual value in are in the character's School Description. All the rest, the player has to buy with character points. I don't have my book with me, but I do recall it being fairly clear. If somebody is reading too much into the sentence limiting dice pools to 10, refer them to the character creation rules.
Doji Tsukaede- 02-20-2007
“I” fully understand all of this. I was looking for the page number. Thank you all. If Chuckles comes asking, I’ll send him here.
Matsu Katsumoto- 02-20-2007
A character's School also determines his beginning Honor Rank, starting equipment (or "Outfit"), and his initial Skill Ranks. Many schools teach only five or six specific Skills, and allow the character to choose the final Skill.
Alright alright! I will go out to the car and get my book. :x
Isawa_Chuckles- 02-20-2007
The problem being, that the Rulebook doesn't contain clear rules for Null values, and where they apply.
This problem also crops up when you consider the ronin who decides not to take a school at rank 1. Does he have minimum honor (0.0) or does he have NULL Honor (Empty Set).
Using Ronin Status as an example proves that the system is capable of Null Values when it expressly states them, however, it does not provide NULL as the default value for unexpressed ones.
Also, Common Sense says you can have Null Skill Value, and I agree that having no ranks in a skill should mean having no ranks, but I'm looking at this mechanically.
Matsu Katsumoto- 02-20-2007
Also, Common Sense says you can have Null Skill Value, and I agree that having no ranks in a skill should mean having no ranks, but I'm looking at this mechanically.
This exception is handled on page 22 under "Unskilled Rolls." When you have no ranks in a skill your dice don't explode, no raises can be declared, and they cannot be used with bonuses from kata or techniques.
The problem being, that the Rulebook doesn't contain clear rules for Null values, and where they apply.
This problem also crops up when you consider the ronin who decides not to take a school at rank 1. Does he have minimum honor (0.0) or does he have NULL Honor (Empty Set).
Using Ronin Status as an example proves that the system is capable of Null Values when it expressly states them, however, it does not provide NULL as the default value for unexpressed ones.
The True Ronin that has no family or school is completely shafted. He has no starting skill ranks and he gets no extra trait bonuses. They did state that Honor is based on school selected, which does not help our guy. I don't think this is a case of a NULL value as much as a case of the lack of proof reading.
Torquemada- 02-23-2007
Hum ...
And how about the old rules saying that you must know Shinseism as the back of your hand to grow your skills/stats ahead 5 ?
Simply vanished in 3rd ed. ?
Matsu Katsumoto- 02-23-2007
Hum ...
And how about the old rules saying that you must know Shinseism as the back of your hand to grow your skills/stats ahead 5 ?
Simply vanished in 3rd ed. ?
Skills now go from 1 to 10. The only thing that you are limited by is the need for a teacher. The rules do give you an "out" by saying that some things can be self-taught. So, by the RAW, there is no limit for raising your skill to rank 10.
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